Rashad Ali on Islamist extremism

Interview with ABC News Australia host Emma Alberici

Originally found on YouTube here: https://youtu.be/PO9J_4OqnsU?si=aH9VIUZTpI3JTtsN

The upload date is June 29, 2015 which is likely close to the broadcast date as the journalist appears to reference a terror attack committed June 26, 2015: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/26/one-dead-in-attack-on-french-factory

Rashad Ali, welcome to the program good

afternoon a significant event as you

have heard his unfolding in France would

you like to make a comment about that

well I think it's a continued attack on

European soil I think also with the

chosen factory appears to be an attack

on a Western specifically American

interest and I guess it's part of a

pattern and unfortunately I think we're

only seeing the beginning of I think it

will continue and arguably there'll be

more events like this why do you say

that I think because we're where the

moment we're dealing really with you

know only the the peripheral elements of

some of the the wider Islamist attacks

that are happening across Europe we saw

what happened with Charlie Hebdo we saw

similar incident in Copenhagen in

Denmark we saw smaller events take place

in Germany etc and I think with the

literally thousands of individuals that

have left from Europe to go and join

Isis I think we may see similar attacks

like this and of this nature what does

lead someone to become so radicalized

that they would involve themselves in

such a brutal strike well I think

sometimes we miss historical context I

think it's very difficult for us to

understand incidents like this in

individuals like this but if we step

back maybe maybe 30 or 40 40 years or so

across the end of the 60s and the 70s we

had similar quite extreme left-wing

groups like the Red Army fraction which

had embraced a very anti-establishment

anti-western anti-capitalist narrative

coupled it with a very extreme form of

marxist communism and left ideology

which they believed was a tactical means

to bringing about a utopia in that sense

it's very similar to what we're seeing

with Isis it's similar to the tactics

that are utilized by al-qaeda it's

similar to the very extreme Islamist

groups that have this

utopianism estate which they've

established in Iraq and Syria and want

to spread across the globe as an

alternative to capitalism the difference

is this is one there's inspired by a

very narrow reading of religious

scripture combined with totalitarian

ideology Russia Valley your story is one

of a former leader of an Islamic

extremist group who's now called on to

address the UK Parliament you're a

prominent university lecturer before we

talk about your transition specifically

tell us first why you were a member of

his butt to rear well I think like a lot

of the kind of radical groups that

operate specifically within the

Islamists seen people are attracted to a

number of things first of all I think

the the nature of the world is that we

will always have problems in the world

whether these are political economic

social and therefore they tend to

utilize those grievances to form a

narrative so whether it's the issue in

Palestine weather is when I was growing

at the Bosnian situation whether it was

ongoing problems in Kashmir Indian

subcontinent all of these political

problems form a very simplistic

narrative which is you have the evil

Western hegemony over the over the globe

you have the Muslim diaspora across the

entire across the entirety of the Muslim

majority countries which are politically

disenfranchised they have lost all

political will and political power

because there is no singular unifying

body if only the muslim-majority

countries can be unified under religious

political leadership which they win or

call a Caliphate which were seeing the

beginnings the bird joining state within

seryn Iraq they'd be able to unify

resources energy power ability military

might and have this kind of very extreme

alternative to capitalism where liberal

values democracy and human rights are

replaced by enforcing one narrow reading

of what people see is or what they claim

to be religious law as the state law and

so they see that as a means of unifying

people together to stand up to Western

hegemony and so all those things come

together identity a sense of belonging a

sense of political purpose

and a manipulation of religious feelings

and religious beliefs that all come

together to provide a very powerful

narrative in that sense I guess people

will work towards there whether it's

politically whether it's through radical

militant activity or whether is by

entering the political processes to

bring about a political change but I'm

very curious about your individual

experience because it's not often we get

to speak to someone who's come sort of

full circle you were only 15 years old

was that what was attracting new back

then to his but tahrir sure I mean sure

I think I guess I was explained as the

number of things first is growing up in

you know I grew up in Sheffield which is

a city in the north of England and it's

an old industrial city it was a very

left-wing city so I grew up in an

atmosphere which is fairly normally

anti-establishment the difference was I

guess I grew up with in coming from a

Muslim heritage in a Muslim background

and what attracted me to Hezbollah area

was that it changed from being me from

being a minority group that was growing

up in a society which I didn't you know

I shared general attributes and belonged

to it in a broad sense but I had this

ever so slight difference and that was

my identity as being a Muslim this was

then captured and blown out on a number

of levels first intellectually that

actually I wasn't part of a minority

religion that didn't belong I was part

of this global Muslim Diaspora that was

1.5 billion people that actually I had

an intellectual belief system one that

was rested upon a sound logic a sound

rational belief in God a sound rational

belief in the divine system of Islam and

as far as they're concerned Islam is not

a religion or a different religious

right or in fact this vast

civilisational culture and history Islam

is a very narrow simplistic political

ideology and they put that in contrast

to capitalism and socialism so someone

who was growing up who's interested in

politics and economics they kind of

explained it as well the alternative to

the failed communism

of the 80s with the end of the Russian

state and the failure of market

economics that actually we all see the

problems in the world resulted from

market economics whether it's third

world debt whether it's you know the

poverty-stricken countries or whether

it's disparity within the advanced world

that actually what they had was a very

simple narrative that Islam has a

thirteen hundred year-old civilizational

economic political alternative that was

ended by the Crusaders at the 1924 with

the destruction of the Ottoman state so

actually what you had is that I guess

capturing those political aspirations

the identity politics an aspect of

religious identity putting it together

in a way that captures young people that

makes them feel confident about their

belief that makes them feel that they

belong to a global Muslim population

there's 1.5 billion people that makes

them believe that they actually possess

solutions to economic social political

problems then actually the way they view

the world as the Western evils these

evils you know can be stopped whether

its destruction of the State of Israel

occupying muslim-majority countries I

Palestinian territory well there is the

Gulf Wars only Western powers are

undertaking war etc sorry these are a

very simple political religious

alternative let me just interrupt you to

ask you what it was about the group that

then turned you off well actually as you

can probably tell the narrative is a

it's it's a moral because it takes you

away from having a natural sense of

right and wrong to rejecting your

natural moral moral compass if you like

and only having a fiddy istic very we

obey what God says and what God says is

what the group tells you is God's

commands and prohibitions ie it's the

ideology and so once you realize this

you start to realize actually this is

just not bad in the sense that they are

ill motives because they they use very

noble motives but actually it's bad in

the sense it's immoral secondly you

start to realize that actually the group

itself is not puritanical it doesn't

belong to the kind of fundamentalist

Saudi Salafi narrative of religion but

it's ideologically extreme but in that

sense it recognizes that Islam for 1400

years has had vast different

interpretations on almost every

issue religion on how we pray how we

fast in fact on every question of

religious law with us on things like

abortions were things like treaties and

politics Muslims have had different

religious positions different cultural

history different politics and so when

you realize this you come to the

recognition that actually Islam is a

very diverse religious tradition and

what they're just trying to impose is

their narrow political reading and the

final thing is it's actually just very

ludicrous the idea that one man should

impose his and it's always the man his

interpretation of religion across the

globe as part of the Supreme hegemonic

state solve the world's problems you

only really buy that if you think God

has told you to do so because it's such

an irrational dogma so I don't want to

run out of it i believe the dogma sorry

i don't want to run out of time but i do

want to get your view on a new set of

legislation that's been introduced in

our country that would give the

government power to revoke the

citizenship of dual nationals who fight

alongside terrorist groups in the Middle

East I want to know what you think of

that in terms of a way to prevent terror

activity coming to Australia well I

think I think a few things first of all

it's not going to stop individuals who

are seeking to leave the country we've

already had the rhetoric and we're going

to arrest you if you return etc the

people seeking to leave the country go

with the view of never returning back to

join this caliphate to join this in a

utopian state and be part of its us the

first thing I don't think it's going to

work as a deterrent regarding the people

there return we have to be really have

to be realistic the people who are

returning and not necessarily people

they've gone and joined Isis these are

people who may have gone initially with

a view of supporting the opposition to

the Assad regime some of them have been

disgusted by what they've seen in our

returning back to Europe and therefore a

lot of them are not necessarily the

greatest threat they were going to be

dealing with at the same time we have to

be realistic about the fact that they do

pose a threat and therefore we need to

assess engage and i would suggest think

of the best way to reintegrate d

radicalize these individuals because we

already have programs running on how to

you know remove the grievance narrative

how

to engage with them on a

religio-political level so that actually

there push pull their motives for

undertaking terrorist acts can be

addressed and they can be reintegrated

into wider society I don't believe just

you know taking away their citizenship

and leaving them to join another country

a will resolve the security problem

because actually it doesn't mean that

they have no connection back to

Australia or the west and therefore it

doesn't necessarily resolve that it's

also passing the problem on to another

country as opposed to dealing with a

problem that to some extent we've

incubated and created in the West so I

think we need to think about that on a

human rights level I think de facto even

if it isn't taking away this they've

been making them stateless I think

effectively we may be sending them to

countries where the human rights records

are quite appalling as well and that for

me poses a moral and ethical challenge

that I think we have to think about very

seriously Russia Delhi you've given us a

lot of things to think about thank you

very much for your time this evening